28 Jun 2008, 8:14pm
California
by admin

InciWeb Problems Are Bull…

InciWeb has allegedly been having “server troubles.” I can’t get on, and no one else I know can either. The “server problems” have been cropping up since last summer.

It takes a day at most and few hundred bucks to add server capacity. Something else is going on.

NF’s with fires rarely post maps anymore, and few updates, and certainly not in a timely way. They all say “go see InciWeb,” but InciWeb is dysfunctional, and everyone knows it.

The same is true of the GACC’s, which post their morning reports 24 hours or more late. The SoCal GACC seems to be working now after a 4 day hiatus. The Southwest GACC hasn’t posted since Thursday. They all say “go see InciWeb.”

The National Fire News used to refer people to InciWeb, but for two weeks they have been running a blurb that says:

Inciweb is having technical difficulties due to the high volume of Internet users trying to access these sites. The technical staff is working to restore access to the site as soon as possible.

The InciWeb technical staff must be tied up in a closet.

Last summer the National Fire News posted the office phone numbers of InciWeb personnel after being annoyed by the complaints. How rude! I threatened the folks at Boise (the National Interagency Fire Center that produces the National Fire News) that I would post their office and home phone numbers, just to see how they liked that kind of thing. They took their little nastiness down.

I think a dysfunctional InciWeb is the USFS’s way of giving citizens the finger. They could fix it if they wanted to, but instead choose not to, while supposedly relying on it. Their supposed efforts to inform are actually efforts to obfuscate, confuse, and cover up.

It’s total bull. I could fix InciWeb in a few minutes. So could any ISP techie.

So while the most extreme fire crisis in modern history is blasting away in densely populated California, and while millions of people’s properties and lives are at stake, the USFS chooses deliberately to hide the facts and monkeywrench their own outreach and information system. Is it a foul, murderous plot or what?

28 Jun 2008, 8:35pm
by Mike


InciWeb originates in Sacramento, not some remote lookout tower in Alaska. Sacto is not some techno-backward isolate.

And the folks who created InciWeb are obviously (if you have been there) techno-geeks of the highest order, probably the most IT proficient in the entire FS.

So it would be very wrong to blame them for InciWeb’s troubles. Something else is going on.

28 Jun 2008, 8:36pm
by Mike


CalFire had a server overload problem last week (evidently, I never had any problems getting on their site), but they fixed it, in about 15 minutes apparently.

29 Jun 2008, 1:26pm
by Al


Their system is obviously overwhelmed. If you go to this page:

http://www.fire.ca.gov/index_incidents_federalv1.php

… and keep hitting the “Visit InciWeb…” link for each fire of interest a separate window will open. If you do not get in within about 20 seconds -and you probably won’t, close the window and hit that link again. No guarantees on this but you will eventually connect. The downside is that each hit overwhelms their system again. They must have really tight band width which a few bucks would fix and are probably using some old in house server unit. I could go on but will stop. Good Luck.

29 Jun 2008, 2:12pm
by Greg V.


Mike, I agree, something else is at hand. I don’t know what, but it smells of ulterior motives. I would think the primary purpose of such web sites is to communicate the facts as soon as they are available. This would ultimately be the greatest safety factor for anyone at risk, but for some reason…

One would think, as profitable as the Wildland Fire Suppression Industry is, (USFS, CALFIRE, local publicly funded fire companies, contractors and sub-contactors) there might be enough funds available to pay for the some Techs, Servers, Pipes, Etc. to keep these information dissemination systems up and running when it is so paramount to the public at large that the most current and accurate information be readily available!

On the brighter side the MODIS web site is still functioning, [here]

30 Jun 2008, 7:16am
by V.C.


Knowing the InciWeb developer and being one of the first InciWeb users, I can assure you that your claims are “bull”. You should get your facts straight before shooting off claims you know nothing about. Judging by your Alexa ratings I see you have no idea what popularity is and your idea that InciWeb traffic issues is something an ISP could remedy only exposes your ignorance.

As for your statement “They could fix it if they wanted to, but instead choose not to, while supposedly relying on it.” …all I can say is that you better get ready to eat crow.

30 Jun 2008, 9:40am
by Mike


V.C. — It’s a given that InciWeb is not working, dysfunctional, and not doing the job it was intended to do. That’s just a fact, Jack. InciWeb is supposed to supply up-to-date information to the people, but it is NOT doing that because no one can access it.

What are you saying? They CANT fix it? It is impossible to fix due to the traffic? That’s also NOT TRUE.

And what does my Alexa rating have to do with it? What kind of a pissant comment is that? Do I have a multi-million dollar budget? Am I the designated Gummit information site?

What’s your web rating VC? Does it make any difference to your argument re InciWeb?

You are here, like everyone else, because InciWeb doesn’t work. Slam dunk on you. You go eat crow, V.C.

30 Jun 2008, 9:59am
by bear bait


So the great joke in all this is that you, one person essentially, have a fire site that has important and useful information, and a place to give comments, and the whole of the Federal Govt cannot get a fire site to operate.

Makes you wonder how they administer laws, fight wars, do all the stuff they claim they can do and supposedly are doing.

Me of so little faith now. Huzzas around for you, Mike. Well done — bear bait.

30 Jun 2008, 8:58pm
by V.C.


The point is you’re making claims you can’t back up with facts, other than the obvious complaint that InciWeb is unavailable. You know little of what’s really going on yet act as if you know all. It’s the kind of useless drivel the world could do without.

Anyway, it looks like InciWeb was moved to some new servers today and appears to be performing quite well. Mmmm…how’s that crow tasting?

30 Jun 2008, 9:14pm
by Mike


Great. Glad to see they have finally solved a problem of ONE YEAR STANDING.

Now if they only had information as updated as this site, they might actually be useful again.

As for useless drivel, my complaints get heard and dealt with. Your snotty do-nothing attitude gets nothing done.

30 Jun 2008, 10:25pm
by Mike


And another thing. This site is designed for feedback. People on the scene or anywhere can contribute information or ask questions. It’s a two-way communication, something InciWeb does not do.

Right, VC?

And another thing. This site puts all the info for each fire on one page, so visitors can see how the fire has progressed. For some fires we even graph the progression in acres, costs, and personnel. That’s something else InciWeb doesn’t do.

And another thing. This site is free. It costs the taxpayers nothing. That’s definitely not the case with InciWeb.

And another thing. We have actual expertise about forests and fire, and so provide the kind of indepth analysis, when we choose to, that InciWeb does not, since they post ONLY the government line they are told to post. We have freedom that they can only envy.

But I am glad InciWeb is functional again. If the InciWebbers show they can report fires consistently, without server glitches, we may pick and choose which fires we track more selectively. Our intention was never to compete with InciWeb or supplant them. We only provided the complete service because we thought such was needed during their long absence.

1 Jul 2008, 12:32am
by Mike


By the way, VC, as of midnight InciWeb is listing 4 active CA fires: Basin, Lime, Indians, and Clover.

In contrast, W.I.S.E. Fire Tracking lists and has updated this evening 29 active CA fires: Basin, Lime, Indians, Clover, Siskiyou Complex, Popcorn/Petersen, June ABCD/Yolla Bolly Complex, Canyon Complex, Iron Complex, Yuba River Complex, American River Complex, BTU/Butte Lightning Complex, HUU Humboldt Complex, Walker, Mendocino Lightning Complex, SHU/Shasta Trinity Lightning Complex, Cub Complex, North Mountain, Oliver/Silver Complex, TGU Antelope Creek/Mill Creek, Mad Complex, Whiskeytown Complex, Hells Half Complex, Orleans/Ukonom Complex, Corral, Gould, Soda Complex, Alps Complex, and Piute Mountain fires.

But I’m sure InciWeb will catch up tomorrow during federal employee working hours.

1 Jul 2008, 6:47am
by bear bait


Wow. A real pissing match. The one person providing something being kicked at by another who can’t git ‘er done. Maybe they are WFUing the problems at Inciweb. Just letting them smolder because that is the new direction. Do nothing but send in a team of observers, and another team of observer watchers. And from that we will get a wonderful mosaic of diverse and random burn results… until the Hot Shots are sent in to burn out the unburned fuel inside the fire lines. Or a wonderful hit and miss reporting result on fires, all of which can be re-written by the historian apologists for the agencies…

I am a old guy, and metered, vetted, spotty information only means one thing to me in the USA: the Govt is not telling us the whole story or the truth, or both. It is when they send out the attack dogs that you know for sure.

10 Jul 2008, 1:24pm
by Agnes


Wow! What an incredible illustration of hippy paranoia!

Mike, did you forget to take your meds again?

10 Jul 2008, 1:36pm
by Agnes


“Rumor can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on”

10 Jul 2008, 2:01pm
by Mike


Agnes, dear, InciWeb is DOWN AGAIN.

This may come as a shock to you, but uncontrolled fires can kill people. When the federal government with their trillion dollar budget can’t get it together to report up-to-date fire information, it strikes me that GROSS INCOMPETENCE is afoot.

The Las Padres NF has decided not post updated fire info and maps on their website because, don’t worry, InciWeb is doing it. Except InciWeb is not. There are residents at Tassahara and Pine Valley whose lives are endangered. Don’t you think it would be nice if they and their loved ones knew what was going on????????????

A dozen or more towns in CA are right now threatened and/or evacuated. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could get some info on those fires instead of a blank screen at InciWeb?

Maybe you should lay off the meds, Agnes, and join the real world. It seems you genuflect in front of the Altar of Big Government without a clue as to what quality, competent government looks like.

10 Jul 2008, 4:33pm
by Agnes


Funny - i have a daughter (squad boss) on the Siskiyou Complex fire (i feel i am fairly aware of the dangers of uncontrolled fires), and seem to have no problems at all finding information on what is happening there - Inciweb is not the only resource for information, unless, of course, you are trying to prove something and create a reality to fit your perceptions…

Try here for information on northern cali fires…
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/klamath/news/

10 Jul 2008, 5:55pm
by V.C.


“This may come as a shock to you, but uncontrolled fires can kill people.”

This may come as a shock to you, but web sites don’t save lives.

10 Jul 2008, 7:04pm
by Mike


Emergency warnings, evacuation notices, etc. do in fact save lives. Many people wish to know how fires are progressing for that reason and/or because they have loved ones or property at risk. InciWeb was not created for entertainment purposes.

Klamath NF is doing a fairly good job of reporting up-to-date information. They have not posted any maps, but in comparison to many NFs, their information provision efforts are stellar.

InciWeb was created to be a central repository and public information portal regarding large fires. It was and is a very good idea. It has not received the support from the agency that it needs to be fully functional. I do not blame InciWeb or its makers/team. The fault lies with the lack of support from the Washington Office, and in my opinion, from the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise. The inter- and intra- agency rivalries and politics are what are holding InciWeb back.

10 Jul 2008, 9:05pm
by V.C.


I Agree. Truce?

10 Jul 2008, 9:51pm
by Mike


I’m not at war with you, V.C. I have been a strong supporter of InciWeb since they first appeared. It bugs me that they have not received support. They were flooded last summer during critical fires. They have been flooded this year. I don’t like it. I want them up and running.

The problems are not of their making. The Washington Office of the US Forest Service is run by out-of-control incompetent boobs. The issue of Very Bad Leadership from the W.O. extends far beyond InciWeb. The USFS is imploding. Neither Congress nor the President seems to have any idea what is happening to that agency, or if they do, they are encouraging the implosion. It is about a lot more than fires.

I invite you to study the other subsites of W.I.S.E. to get some notion of the struggle we are engaged in, trying to protect, maintain, and perpetuate America’s priceless heritage forests in the face of an agency gone deeply haywire.

10 Jul 2008, 10:40pm
by V.C.


Well, I can toast you, but I must refrain from drinking the Kool-aid, if you know what I mean. :)
Being a recently retired Fed (6/20/08!) I have a different view of how things work. Our efforts are constantly stymied by extreme views from each side. Yes, there is waste, redundancies, and a bureaucratic mess in many cases. However, in many ways this is a system that public has created, not the Government. Yes, current administrative decisions play a major role in what we do, but for the most part, at least from my perspective, the outcomes from the multitude of environmental, employment, and operational lawsuits dictate what we do and how we do it.

Laws and regulations guide us in every step we make. Most are good and the extra work involved in getting projects completed is justified. My concern is that the public has the opinion that we’re all just sitting around collecting a paycheck and the bureaucratic slowness is a byproduct of incompetence. I’m sure you can agree that’s not exactly the case.

I’m not going to pretend like I know every nuance of you concerns. Truth be told, I’m an expert at nothing. However, as this all relates to InciWeb, I know, even at the NIFC and WO level, the utmost attention is being paid to InciWeb. I know for a fact the Chief is well aware of the needs and I know that members of Congress are even involved in ensuring the web site succeeds. But, the solution is not some on/off switch that is yet to funded. From what little I know there simply isn’t capacity within the current system to sustain the traffic InciWeb requires (something like 3 million hits a day). And, I know everybody is working on a solution.

Success is a double edged sword.

10 Jul 2008, 10:52pm
by Mike


Well, I don’t know about that. Just as one of many examples of the intra-agency battle going on, The Northern Rockies Coordination Center posts this little blurb on their site:

Please Note: InciWeb is not managed by NRCC. This website was included on the NRCC website as a helpful link to those who are seeking fire information beyond what is available from NRCC. Please direct Inciweb comments to Teddi LaMoure, US Forest Service.

The NRCC has had a fire burning in their region since yesterday, the Mt. Sentinal Fire. As of 11:00 pm this evening, the NRCC has posted no significant information regarding that fire. The daily situation reports (209’s) were due at 5:00 pm yesterday and today. The NRCC has been in no hurry to post them, even though they claim:

The Incident Information component is designed to provide the public and news media with general information on large wildland fires, fire restrictions and closures, and other relevant activity throughout the Geographic Area.

So they don’t follow through on their stated mission, and they provide no help whatsoever to InciWeb, other than to name an individual at InciWeb to direct complaints at.

Here are the names of the NRCC Operations Committee:

North Idaho – Mark XXXXX
Northwest Montana – Mark XXXXX (Chair)
Southwest Montana – Jack XXXXXXXXX
Central Montana – Bret XXXX
South Central Montana – Phil XXXXXXX
Eastern Montana – Phil XXXX

If you have a complaint about the shitty job that NRCC does at providing “general information on large wildland fires, fire restrictions and closures, and other relevant activity throughout the Northern Rockies Geographic Area,” please call one of those bozos and give them hell!

In fact, if you get their phone numbers, send them in and I will post them so everybody can call Mark, Mark, Jack, Bret, Phil, and Phil and tell them what a sad group of worthless culls they are.

Because it cuts both ways, VC. It is no help to InciWeb for NRCC to post nasty little blurbs. But that’s the mindset of the Citadel of Fire in Boise. Right now the NIFC is eating up every dime of the USFS budget. They are sitting on fires that burn for months. Last summer they roasted 800,000 acres of the Boise and Payette NF’s right out their backdoor. They have spread the policy of WFU and AMR and are burning 10,000,000 acres a year. This year’s fire budget will be used up by August.

Already this year we have seen fires dragged out, such as the Indians Fire that burned 80,000 acres and cost $40 mil. We have seen a WFU (the Clover Fire) explode and burn 15,000 acres and cost over $8 mil. The fire crews were right there when the Basin Fire ignited, but somehow it has grown to 100,000 acres, much like the Zaca Fire last year that started out as a WFU and ended up burning 240,000 acres, costing $120 mil (the most expensive fire in CA history). Fires on the Six Rivers, Klamath, and Tahoe NFs have been slated to burn until October. How big will they be by then? How much will they have cost? What will they have destroyed?

Yes, endless litigation and analysis paralysis have stymied nearly every effort to do restoration forestry and make our forests fire-resilient. But that is no excuse for a bunch of fire-happy non-foresters to impose Let It Burn across our public landscapes.

It appears that burning down forests is the only active management the USFS engages in anymore. That is my personal opinion, but one shared by a great many folks, including many members of NAFSR. I strongly urge you to get involved with that organization. They are the leaders that the USFS so desperately needs to turn to for guidance.

14 Jul 2008, 11:44pm
by Misty


I’m sure it COULD be Inciweb itself, but I’m not absolutely certain of that. Earlier today it was working fine, but I tried to access it just now and it wasn’t working… dead as a doornail… if I used the AOL browser it would bring up their search page along with the information that the site couldn’t be found… so just for the hell of it, I pinged it… it dropped all 4 packets. Then I did a traceroute and it reported the first 15 hops… the last one that was successful was reported as 12.123.8.9 everything after that timed out, and there were a total of 30 hops. So I’m thinking first that with a URL like that, I don’t THINK it’s in Sacramento… and with missing that many hops that it’s more likely a problem with the DNS server than Inciweb itself.

28 Jul 2008, 1:07am
by sat


Inciweb is down right now in fact. I am heading to your post on the Telegraph fire to try and see a map.

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